AH: Another sort of funny thing on OUTRAGEOUS FORTUNE, we had picked a brewery vat, a whole huge place where they made the beer, as the apartment for Bette Midler; a balcony when you came in and down into this huge sort of vat, tub-like big, big room. And part of it was that it was to be messy and very messy, and the studio head, Jeff Katzenberg [Jeffrey Katzenberg], came early, came by, you know, to see one day, and said, thought, you know, it was too messy. I said, "Well that's the joke. They come in, Shelley Long and Bette Midler, and they think that the bad guys have been there and messed up the place." And Bette says, "No. No. That's normal. That's the way it is," you know. And so when Jeffrey came to see it and said it was too messy, and I said, "No, Jeffrey, that's, you know, the joke." I said, "Shelley thinks the bad guys have been there and messed up, and Bette can deliver her line about that's the way, that's normal." Now, he just thought it was too messy, too messy, and so I went down and I moved, took away a few things, you know, about half a dozen, and he felt that was better. And the next day I just put other things in the same places, and we had it messy, and it turned out to be the funniest joke in the picture. It gets the biggest laugh every time.

AH: Jeffrey [Jeffrey Katzenberg] gave me a problem, not a problem, but on TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS, it was… Let's see, the Belushi [James Belushi] character has a key that he inadvertently gets a hold of and ends up in this beautiful house owned by an advertising executive from Chicago, his summer place, and very modern and hip and it's got all kinds of stereo equipment, everything. You know, it's very modern. And when I saw the Location Scout's pictures and that, I, indeed, there were a couple of places. I went to one, I thought, geez, this will be it, and got in, and it had all these things, but it somehow didn't lend itself to camera angles. And also the windows were what do you put that stuff that's on so that it keeps the sun out, but it meant also that when I was outside looking in, I couldn't look in, and I wanted to look in a few times, and supposedly the helicopter lands in the front yard, and there was nowhere I could land the helicopter. And I had to, I thought, it's just not right. And it was difficult to find anything else, and another place they took me to, though, I thought, I can make this work, but it was a whole different design. It was named Tara. Indeed, it was like GONE WITH THE WIND. It was that kind of southern mansion that had just been built, and the people who had built it, I think, needed money and they haven't moved in yet, so they were willing to let us film there, and I thought, that's it. And somehow Jeffrey saw the pictures of it and got very upset because that's not the modern place that's written, and he spoke to me and showed me the other pictures, and I explained to him what the problem was with the other one. And I had to take, I think it was the head of production, I can't remember, somebody out there, and show 'em, and say, "These are my problems." So finally, okay, finally they, I, and I said to Jeffrey, "What I can do, what I will do in this Tara is that when he comes in, it's, you're up on the second level and the staircase both ways going down, and your beautiful two-story living room, and then you're looking out at the ocean. I said, "The drapes will be closed. When he comes in, he'll just be nonplussed by the glamor, but he'll see some buttons, and he'll push one, and the drapes will open, and as they open, you'll see the ocean, and as they open, the sofa will turn 180, and they'll be looking out." I said, "Then another button, and a bar will come out of the wall, and it'll..." I said, "We'll modernize. We'll do fun things like that." And I said, "And I'll put, you know, 15 foot television screen in the den and all these things." And finally, they agreed to it, and we could land the helicopter on the beach below and walk up. And it just proved terrific. We couldn't do the furniture turn. It was just too expensive. And the Production Designer came up with a bright idea. The, instead, at one point, we had the Belushi [James Belushi] character touch a button. He doesn't know what it'll do. One button he pushed and the bar opened, and another button he pushes and the table that's in, near the sofa, and you know, looking out to the water, becomes a fountain. So we did all kinds of things like that. And the funny thing was, when I checked to see whose house it was, you know, it was an advertising executive. So you have funny things like that.

INT: Can you talk about your relationship with Agents?

AH: The relationship with Agents has changed a lot over the years. It used to be that the Agents, how should I, I don't know quite how to put this, but were very caring about the film. And about their client, and what sort of role a client was playing, and yes, that he should, he or she, should be treated well, but they also cared about the picture. And if you had a problem, if your Actor was late all the time, they would speak to their Actors, and try and get them to be more professional, or you worked sort of hand in hand. I'm not saying you didn't have your differences and that. Now it's, and I'm exaggerating, obviously, it's, but, it's reached more the point where the concern is just for the client. The, get everything the best for the client, and the most this and the most that, and sometimes not thinking about what is this doing for the career or, it's going to hurt the picture, or how can I help the project and still not hurt my client? As I say, I'm exaggerating, but it's not quite the same. Needless to say, they're pretty damn terrific, and there are people, obviously, who care and who do... It's, it just sort of depends. You never quite know… Like, I'm just thinking back to when we did LOVE STORY, I wanted one of the French Composers, I'd said, because I thought if they all write, it could be Maurice Jarre. It could be Michel Legrand, Francis Lai, that group. They all write wonderful love themes, and I thought, if they screw up with the rest of it, I can make the love theme work all through. And Bob Evans [Robert Evans] said, yeah, but he liked the idea of somebody more hip. And I said, "Well, who?" And he suggested, thought, he said, "What about Jimmy Webb?" And I thought that's a good idea because Jimmy had written some nice dramatic songs or romantic, and I thought, yeah, he could. And I said, "Fine," and Jimmy came and looked at the cut and loved the movie and fell in love with Ali MacGraw and her character. He just, and was very touched by the film and wanted to do it. And I talked to him about the kind of music I wanted and everything, and then he went away for a week or so and thought about it and then came back and we spotted it. You know, went through bit-by-bit, what I need here, and what I need there, how long this should be, did all that. And then away he went. Now we're about two weeks from the recording session, and the Music Editor calls me, he says, "Look," he said, "we're two weeks from recording, and I haven't even spoken to Jimmy." He said, "He won't speak to me. I can't speak..." I said, "What do you mean? You phone?" He said, "I phoned him and phoned him." So, I called, and I couldn't get through to him, and I don't remember if the Producer called or Bob Evans, Howard or but we made a lot of calls, nothing. Two days before recording, we still, there's been no contact with the Music Editor. And suddenly a cassette appeared on my desk, and everybody was so upset, and I said, "I don't care if you record it at three in the morning with his own group. If it works, what do I care?"

AH: And it didn't work [referring to the music composed by Jimmy Webb for the film LOVE STORY]. It didn't work because Jimmy [Jimmy Webb] fell so in love with Ali [Ali MacGraw] and her character that he buried her every time she was on the screen. And I'd spent my time here trying to keep it from being a soap opera, you know, keep it up, up. Yes, I wanted you to cry at the end, but I didn't want you crying all through, 'cause what's left sort of at the end... And David Geffen, at that time, was a Manager, and David was Jimmy Webb's Manager, and this is why I say, how people were concerned, you know, about the film too, and David realized that the score was not good, and he called Jimmy and told him it wasn't good, knowing that when he told him that, Jimmy was going to fire him. You know, he was going to lose Jimmy Webb as a client. But, he had to go with what was right. And he did, so… And my wife tells the story of, I've only lost my temper once in sort of all the films, and it was, well about, I guess, two below zero in Gloucester, Massachusetts and the leading man, you know, the Crew is out there freezing, and the leading man was an hour and a half late. Now, if it was the first time, you say, what, something might've happened and that, but it had been a regular feature. And the, and I just lost my cool, and I let into him about his lack of respect for the Crew, and you know, and to what they were doing. And he left the picture. And the Producer had to go and talk to him, and then a call went to head, you know, the head of the studio on the West Coast, and finally they called me and said if I apologized, he would come back. And I said, "I would apologize for losing my temper, but I wouldn't apologize for what I said." And so he wouldn't return, but they threatened him with lawsuit and all. He did come back and… But we had another 10 days of filming; he wouldn't look at me. I would just talk into his ear. He was going through a, I think a period of, what should we say, taking products he shouldn't or something. You know, it was, it's, we've become friends since, and but, it, but the thing was that his Agent was Stan Kamen, who was sort of the, one of the top Agents at the Morris office [William Morris Agency], and that Agent once said to my wife that when this occurred, he said, "If it had been anybody else but Arthur Hiller," he said, "I would've been on my client's side," but he said, "I realized it was Arthur, it wouldn't, that there had to be some reason for it and..." So, you know, there are Agents who, anyway... It's a, many Agents are very helpful Managers and good for their client and good for the film, but you find more, as I say, this kind of division now of--

INT: Have they [Agents] been helpful in your career?

AH: In my own career terms, my Agents… Actually, I guess I've spent how many years? Wait a minute from 1955, I think. Most of the 40 years, I've been with Phil Gersh, who's been looking after me, and you know, been a friend and helpful, and you know, mostly did wonderful things. Sometimes I wish he hadn't done certain things. But looking on the balance of things, just so many wonderful things, you know, that I think what's my percentage in, you know, in working, so you never know where or what it'll be like.

INT: Can you describe your editing process and what qualities you're looking for in an Editor? How you work with an Editor?

AH: Needless to say, when you're working with an Editor, you need somebody that you feel comfortable with and who shares your vision, understands what you're looking for, as with all the other heads that you're working with. I work, I think, a little differently than most people in that I don't tell the Editor what I have in my head. I have, I told, I'm very prepared, and I know it's in a sense, maybe coming out of live TV, but I'm sort of, I even have it cut in my head, but I don't tell the Editor what my feelings are, because, I mean, I do say, “I printed these two takes. I printed this because I like this line or that line or this part of this,” you know, and there's an indication of that, but not in terms of how I see it together. Obviously, what you're shooting, it's pointing in certain directions of editing. But I don't add to it. I don't say anything because I want the Editor to bring his or her creativity to it. If I give them my ideas right away, it can block their thinking, so I let them have the freedom to come up... And they, they then, they'll come up with ideas that I haven't thought of. I think I've shot it this way because this is the way I want it together. Never thinking oh, it also could be this. They may find something a little different or that. And so I don't, I wait and then when I look at that first assembly, I can say, "Oh, I like this better, or that's not the way I see it," and we can change, and then we start, then we work together. And when working together, we come up with things.

AH: And I talk a lot during the editing, in a sense of I, if I feel I missed something, I mumble about it or maybe not so mumbly. I may say, "I didn't..." I can remember once saying I didn't feel I had enough tension in a scene in MAN IN THE GLASS BOOTH [THE MAN IN THE GLASS BOOTH]. I wish I had a little more tension. And David Bretherton changed the editing and got me more tension. Or I remember once saying to John Howard [John C. Howard], "Oh, I like the first half of this take and the second half of this take," and I only did one shot. I didn't, there's no coverage or anything. He found a spot where, I think it was the lights of those flash cameras, and at that moment, made a cut, between the two, and you didn't notice, and I got what I wanted. I got many examples with Bob Jones [Robert C. Jones], who's edited about, I don't know, eight, ten films with me, and always comes up with ideas. And I said to Bob, for instance, on LOVE STORY, I said at the end, where she [Ali MacGraw] knows she's dying, and he [Ryan O'Neal] knows, and she says, "Skate for me once more." And I had her, this lonely figure, in the bleachers, with the snow behind, and I had him on the rink skating, and I thought, yes, but I said, "Bob," I said, I also wanted them, I loved her loneliness, but I also wanted them together. And I said, "I tried long lens, and it didn't look right, and I, nothing seemed to work, you know." A few days later, he shows me, he just, he super imposed her close-up over him skating, and gave me that togetherness that I was looking for. And he did one of those, when Ryan is carrying Ali up the stairs and into their apartment, because you carry your bride over the threshold of the first home. Also I did, they come in the front door of the place and up the stairs and in just one shot, and I printed two takes, and again, I liked the first half of the first and the second half of the second but nothing to cut away. They were both fine. It was not… But it bothered me because I liked it with nothing to cut away to. And Bob found a moment where he made a cut and put the two together. And when we first put the film together, on the second cut, Bob came up with the idea of shifting some scenes around that in a sense put them out of time, but they wouldn't, you wouldn't, it could be in time. When we were filming they were meant to be out of, but it would work, and it did improve the flow. And so you have that sort of thing, and it's... I find that that's, it's like everything else. Each of your creative people has ideas, and you can work together and come up with something together. When we, well I'll skip that story.

INT: Can you talk about your use of music, how you work with music and how you select the Composer?

AH: Well, in selecting a Composer, you, again, you go by instincts or you go by seeing films that you thought the music did wonderful things and that. I worked mostly, I guess, with Henry Mancini, who just each time, it was just sheer delight to see your film sort of grow and change and how he gave you the emphasis you wanted or the flavor you wanted. And sometimes he would call and drop by and just sort of play on the piano, and say, "What do you think of this?" or something like that. Or with Alan Silvestri… it said he works on, like on a synthesizer. And he likes to have you there, and he'll play all of it, and you can make comments and that. But I find, it's amazing how many times in the mix when they're finished, you can, as they're playing it, you can have a thought, and they will be able to change. Or you say, "Gee, I like the way you use the saxophone there. Why can't you use it here?" And they say, "Oh. Yeah," and they'll… Or you meet with people, maybe, that you didn't know like Elmer Bernstein. I'd always admired and didn't know, and so we met. He came; I forget which city I was in. I think, was I in Chicago on THE BABE? I know that he traveled. He flew to meet with me, and we sat just enjoyed each other, personally, and I just knew we could, and we just worked, you know, just so easily and so well. It just… Although I'm remembering, work with Quincy Jones on OUT OF TOWNERS [THE OUT OF TOWNERS], and Quincy was “the new kid”, as we say. Oh, I'm exaggerating, 'cause he was certainly well known and wonderful but hadn't worked that many films. And you know, and we talked about an off, and he was off writing. And now we're at the night, the night before, at midnight, I get a call from Quincy that we're going to record nine o'clock in the morning and, "Arthur, what did you say you wanted here?" And I thought, he hasn't written it yet? But he was there in the morning, and it was just fine. You know, so sometimes you feel you do a disservice. On AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY [THE AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY], Johnny Mandel wrote just wonderful score and a beautiful song, of [SINGS] Emily, Emily. And to this day I feel guilty that I couldn't get the words of the song to use them anywhere in the film and to be eligible for Academy Awards, the words have to have been in. And I tried. I snuck it in on radio in the background, and it disturbed the scene. I tried it on the titles, and we just, this beautiful theme and it just, you know, it happens.

INT: How about working in sound design and sound effects?

AH: In sound design and sound effects, again, like everything, you get together with the sound effects people, and you go through the pictures and you talk, and you have ideas, and they have ideas, and then they call you in, and you go over. You listen to some of it in its place and, you know, and you say, "It's too noisy," or "It's doing this," or, "I love this sound, but it would work better for me here," or whatever. Or they say, "You said you wanted nothing here, but what about this?" And you say, "Oh. Yes, I do." You just, it's the same as working with each of the creative people that you work with, you just, you have to, you have to know what you want. You have to hang in, but you also have to have your ears open and your eyes open, and 'cause you're going to hear things that let them change you when they are right. Let it be different if that's going to improve it. And be strong if it isn't. If that does not work for you, then say it, and hang in. It's hard becau--as I keep saying, we're as insecure as everybody else.

INT: Can you discuss the mixing of a film, how, using examples of how you have worked on the mix?

AH: I always find the mix very enjoyable and, because I don't feel, I don't have to work that hard. I sort of sit back, and the effects people and the dialogue people, and you know, we've done all the things that've been done, and they've usually done a little putting together already and then I come in. And it's almost very; it's good. It's always… And then you just, you have, you listen and sometime you talk about a little bit of balance, and it's amazing what little things they can do or put together or work out in those fashions. And, or you say, "Gee, that effect doesn't sound so good," and the Sound Effects Mixer will find another effect that maybe they had or we'll phone to the sound people, and they will find another one, and we'll go ahead working on other things. It's just… But they're very creative, and they do their work and again, you sort of supervise and make your comments as you feel.

INT: Can you talk about the design of title sequences and how you do, approach that?

AH: You sometimes get a feeling when you're filming that you should have opening credits over and sometimes you feel there shouldn't be any credits till the end. And sometimes you feel they should be credits but on their own; they shouldn't touch on the film. You go by instinct, and if you feel that you want them over, you make sure that you have enough footage. Sometimes you shoot a little more footage to allow for it, in certain areas, or if you feel you want it at the end and just start with the film, then you have to go through getting the permissions that you need, you know, that the DGA will work on with you. Or if you want just normal titles, you work with a title house with people whose creativity goes in that direction. And they'll come up with ideas, and you may just love the very first thing they say, or they may come up with three different ideas. Or you may not like and then you have discussions and out of the discussions, you have, you make changes and you find a way. Or it's just, again, your instincts and being open and creative and working with people who are creative and have ideas.

INT: And how about the final timing of the film, seeing the answer print. Is there anything that's special about that process?

AH: You try to follow, you follow a picture through from beginning to end. You, once you start working, you should stay with that film 'til those prints are done. So, after the mix, you should be working with the Cinematographer on the color timing and going over that with him, and any of the other problems that may still exist or, I'm just thinking how sometimes towards the end, you find yourself with a big problem. Like on LOVE STORY, when I completed with Bob Jones [Robert C. Jones], and we felt this is it, this is the picture, and I showed it to the studio, to Bob Evans [Robert Evans] and Peter Bart and the Producers, Howard Minsky [Howard G. Minsky] and David Golden and I think Erich Segal. I'm not sure whether Erich was there. But this was the film, and we'd put in temp track and stuff and ran it. And afterwards, everybody said, "It's good, but something's not working." And I said, "The dailies are terrific. The scenes are terrific, but something's wrong." And I couldn't argue 'cause I felt the same way. And I thought, Bob and I've been working on this for so long. What did we do wrong? 'Cause we felt good about what we had done. But I could feel also watching, there's some... And Bob Evans said, "Well you have to tear it apart and put it together again, you know." And I couldn't argue, and we went home, and I couldn't sleep that night. I felt what have I done here? What have I done wrong? And about one o'clock in the morning, it hit me, and I phoned Bob. I woke him up, and I said, "Meet me at eight o'clock." And I met him in the editing, and in 45 minutes, we made the changes, and that's the film that went out. And what was it? In the script and the way we filmed, or put it together, the opening, well the very opening is the Ryan O'Neal character in the park with the voice over. But then the very opening scene is Ryan in the doctor's office and the doctor says, "Your wife is dying." And you feel for this man. You see he's a young man and how shocked and pained he is, and you feel his pain. Then you see him walk down the streets of New York. The world goes on around him, and he doesn't see it. Then he goes home, and you see him at home, and you meet her [Ali MacGraw], and then he goes to bed, and you close in on his eyes, and then you go back and tell the story. And I thought, that's it. That's the problem. Yes, you feel sorry for the Ryan O'Neal character. You feel his pain and you care. But you don't know her. What if the doctor said that, two-thirds of the way through the movie, when she, you've gotten to know her. She's your friend. Now the doctor says, "She's dying." And, "Oh my god. My friend is dying." So not only do you feel his pain, but you have the pain of your friend dying. And that's all we did was move it around, and do that. And I often thought, what if I hadn't thought of that? What, would we have come to it, you know, playing around or would we have found other ways, but… [INT: That's great.] …just never know, you know.

INT: Before the Directors Guild [DGA] got the Director's Cut guaranteed in the contract, what kind of control did you have in post-production?

AH: I've never, or rarely, I should say, had problems with, in post-production. For the most part, I've not had problems with the Studios or the Producers in terms of my cut. Almost always when you turn in a good cut, they're happy and very happy. I obviously had the big problem of the ALAN SMITHEE FILM [AN ALAN SMITHEE FILM: BURN HOLLYWOOD BURN], of taking my name off. That's when they took the picture away from me and changed it totally. And the problem I described about TEACHERS and some changes but very little that they made, but otherwise, it's… I try to sit, I let the studio see my cut, and I listen because sometimes they will, they come up with good ideas too. And if they don't, you argue with them, and you fight. I've gone one time, I even went over the head of production, you know, to one of the VPs, and I told the head I was going because he and I were disagreeing on something and it's, but it wasn't that major, but it, I felt it could make a difference sort of thing. But it's basically, if you deliver good stuff, they see that it's good and saves them trouble. They don't have to do anything.

INT: What about test screenings? Can you describe the experiences you've had with test screenings, cores, focus groups, any of that?

AH: Most of the films that I've worked on, we've done test screenings and focus groups, and I was going to say I'm not wild about it and yet in some certain ways I am, particularly if you do a comedy. If you sit there in the audience, you can hear if they're laughing. You know if your joke isn't working. And the other thing I find at test screening is that you can tell if an audience is bored or uncomfortable at a certain point. If you hear a lot of coughing and sneezing and people getting up and going out for popcorn, you know which, that certain pieces may not be working as well as they should. I'm not… Yes, I stay, and I listen to the focus groups and, because sometimes somebody will say something that interests me. I'm not a big one for reading through the cards, but if there is something that a lot of people make the same comment on, then I'm interested to know what it is and pay, you know, anything that helps you feel it is okay, you know.

AH: But I should point out too that on LOVE STORY, we did not have a sneak preview. We just, once I came up with the idea of moving the scene of the doctor telling him that his wife is dying to two-thirds of the way through, when she's become your friend, and you feel stronger, and once we got Francis Lai's score, which just... Well I think I spoke to you about the fact that we had a score by Jimmy Webb, and then, when we brought, finally went to Francie Lai, he didn't want to do it because he had just finished two films and the, and Bob Evans [Robert Evans] called his friend Alain Delon in Paris and got him to talk Francis into it. Then Francis speaks no English. I speak no French. I wrote him a long letter telling him the kind of music I wanted, the feel I wanted from the film. Then I spotted it and told him what I wanted here for this eight seconds or for two and a half seconds, all the little things that went through, and I mailed it off to him in English. Well when that came back, I cried. Everything I asked for was there and better. It just, the score couldn't have been better. Just, you know, everything you've thought of, every moment that you wanted was there, like in all that playing in the snow. I just said, I forgot the word I used, but I think just one word and it just joyful I think. Well, the joy that he brought to it... So, he just, I tingle when I think about, everybody contributes, and you have to be open.